Read Between The Leading: Read Between The Leading - On this week’s episode we talk to John Boardley...
Allegra
· 8 months ago
You are both so wonderful.
I was studying design because I had a desire to communicate, but left because I felt I was inadequate at the more artistic aspects in Graphic Design. I'm now an English major, but miss it every day. I find myself procrastinating for hours and hours from my homework in pursuit of learning all that I can about typography. Your podcast has refreshed and re-ignited my passion. Best of all, it's encouraged me to submit my portfolio to UQAM in their typography department. I look forward to your episodes, and all you both have to offer. Needless to say, you both are incredibly talented (I've stalked your personal websites - brilliant!) Thank you for typography and the importance of it in our society so accessible.
GAPS
· 8 months ago
Great show again, guys.
Couple of small things—there is just as strong a regard for good typography with the Japanese alphabet as there is with the Latin one, with just as many finicky rules that often go ignored in a lot of published material. It’s kind of frustratingly difficult to find any English information on what these rules are, but a guy I know wrote a couple short blog posts on the topic a few years ago that give you some idea of how one goes about setting type in Japanese: http://www.aqworks.com/2004/10/15/japanese-typo...
The idea that Japanese is just monspaced is way off the mark, for instance. There are also a plethora of different Japanese typefaces, with more coming all the time. It is true that there are only a few really big, full character set typefaces around, but there’s even more of those than you might expect, given the effort required. Akira Kobayashi is probably the biggest single name in that field, a sometime protegé of Hermann Zapf, who is responsible for Hiragino Mincho. Something to note is that having three alphabets means that there is no obligation to design all three. The two simpler alphabets, Hiragana and Katakana, have about 45 characters each—well within the capability of one person. Because of this a lot of typefaces comprise of only one or both of these alphabets. There certainly aren’t many Japanese type rockstars, though. I think TypeRadio have interviewed some of them, but the people that get international attention in the field tend to be on the more creative end of the spectrum. Guys like Dainippon Type Organization (who’s stuff is really rad, nonetheless: http://dainippon.type.org/).
Just felt compelled to clear that stuff up a bit, because while I was doing my degree (and studying Japanese at the same time) I wound up making a lot of the same assumptions that John did in this interview. I’ve learnt a bit more about things since then. Still not nearly enough to feel in any way confident when laying out Japanese myself.
One interesting thing I can add, too. There was a question about what things John had noticed Japanese designers doing typographically, and there’s one thing that’s blown my mind over and over since I got here—it’s pretty much okay to squish type, horizontally being the most common. My supervisor here explained that this is pretty much down to there being no condensed or wide versions of Japanese typefaces. Of course this is linked to the huge character sets necessary, but unfortunately the fact that it is acceptable with Japanese characters means that for a lot of designers it then becomes acceptable with Latin characters, too! Madness!
You guys should dig up a something like Hiragino Mincho or Kakugo sometime, too. These large character sets aren’t just big because of traditionally written characters—for a full character set face to be acceptable a huge amount of different bullet points, lines, arrows, circled letters and numbers, inverted circled letters and numbers, and again in boxes... and still more seem to be necessary, because I see these extra characters everywhere! Quite fascinating to pore over, but it’s really no wonder there are only a few weights and no condensed or wide versions of even the most prominently used faces...
Okay, you’ve probably heard enough about Japanese typography for one day! Sorry for going on and on again!
Aaron Heth
· 8 months ago
Absolutely wonderful as usual GAPS,
When we get our new site up with the resources section we'll definitely have to add your information in, and thanks for those blog entries as really. This is a perfect comment to the show.
ilovetypography
· 8 months ago
«The idea that Japanese is just monspaced is way off the mark,...»
Not at all. Note that I think qualified “Monospaced” with “fundamentally” or “basically” (I haven’t listened to the recording yet). While many Japanese typefaces are proportionally spaced, they more often than not comprise subsets of what are, in effect, monospaced glyphs. For example, the Kanji might share one advanced width, while the Hiragana another, and the Katakana yet another. Add to this that numerous Japanese typefaces have sparsely populated kerning tables (if any), and the overall impression is of a monospaced typeface.
The article that you mention outlines some sound tips, especially when it comes to spacing; e.g. more complex, multi-stroke characters should be set more loosely; conversely, Katakana are best spaced a little tighter than is the custom. It’s certainly a challenge to set Japanese type well, and especially difficult to achieve even texture/colour.
What you write about the tendency to distort text is unfortunately quite true; and so is the habit of applying a stroke to substitute for heavier weights that more often than not, simply don’t exist. And that’s another challenge of designing Japanese type — more complex characters easily become clogged and illegible once one begins to increase the stroke weight.
Well, you’ve inspired me to actually get on and write something about Japanese typography. If you have something you’d like to say, then feel free to mail me.
C
· 8 months ago
Hey guys just wanted to say that the concept of your podcast and I believe you headed in the right direction but I have to say the audio side of this podcast needs a lot of work ... the levels between speakers is absolutely hazardous to ears.
Please don't be offended ,I just wanna be able to hear this cast correctly.
C.
David Airey
· 8 months ago
Peter and Jane books. Ah the memories. Nice insight, Johno, but you're wrong on one point. People did read your other blog. What happened to redsil.com? Did you take it offline?
ilovetypography
· 8 months ago
David: Pleased to see there's someone old enough to remember Peter & Jane. Redsil.com was retired a little while ago. The domain name came up for renewal, and I let it go. I hadn't updated it in over a year, and iLT keeps me pretty busy. Anyway, it did get me started.
Andy
· 8 months ago
Excellent show guys, I really liked this one -- one of your best. Thanks for posting links to a couple of John's favorite fonts. I was wondering if you could post a few more that he mentioned? I was having a little trouble making out the names of a few I hadn't heard of.
ilovetypography
· 8 months ago
Andy
I still haven't listened to the podcast, but from memory, here are some of the others I think I mentioned: Newzald, Lexicon by Bram de Does, Feel Script by Ale Paul, Kinescope by Mark Simonson, and Swift by Gerard Unger.
I've also been compliing a list of 100 of my favourite typefaces, so keep a look out for that. Compliing the list didn't take long. It's preparing the specimens that does.
Andy
· 8 months ago
This is great -- thanks! Can't wait to see your top 100!
nerdski
· 8 months ago
One of my favorite episodes so far. I love the part where you guys talk about having an "obsession" feeds your creative passion. I totally agree with this and find that my obsession with design really fuels what I love to do. Great stuff guys, I'm about to listen to episode 10– should be a good one.
Jay Lichtmann
· 6 months ago
Great show, I really enjoyed listening to what John had to say.
I looked on "I Love Typography" but was not able to find the new site that John was talking about launching.
All Comments
I was studying design because I had a desire to communicate, but left because I felt I was inadequate at the more artistic aspects in Graphic Design. I'm now an English major, but miss it every day. I find myself procrastinating for hours and hours from my homework in pursuit of learning all that I can about typography. Your podcast has refreshed and re-ignited my passion. Best of all, it's encouraged me to submit my portfolio to UQAM in their typography department. I look forward to your episodes, and all you both have to offer. Needless to say, you both are incredibly talented (I've stalked your personal websites - brilliant!) Thank you for typography and the importance of it in our society so accessible.
Couple of small things—there is just as strong a regard for good typography with the Japanese alphabet as there is with the Latin one, with just as many finicky rules that often go ignored in a lot of published material. It’s kind of frustratingly difficult to find any English information on what these rules are, but a guy I know wrote a couple short blog posts on the topic a few years ago that give you some idea of how one goes about setting type in Japanese: http://www.aqworks.com/2004/10/15/japanese-typo...
The idea that Japanese is just monspaced is way off the mark, for instance.
There are also a plethora of different Japanese typefaces, with more coming all the time. It is true that there are only a few really big, full character set typefaces around, but there’s even more of those than you might expect, given the effort required. Akira Kobayashi is probably the biggest single name in that field, a sometime protegé of Hermann Zapf, who is responsible for Hiragino Mincho.
Something to note is that having three alphabets means that there is no obligation to design all three. The two simpler alphabets, Hiragana and Katakana, have about 45 characters each—well within the capability of one person. Because of this a lot of typefaces comprise of only one or both of these alphabets.
There certainly aren’t many Japanese type rockstars, though. I think TypeRadio have interviewed some of them, but the people that get international attention in the field tend to be on the more creative end of the spectrum. Guys like Dainippon Type Organization (who’s stuff is really rad, nonetheless: http://dainippon.type.org/).
Just felt compelled to clear that stuff up a bit, because while I was doing my degree (and studying Japanese at the same time) I wound up making a lot of the same assumptions that John did in this interview. I’ve learnt a bit more about things since then. Still not nearly enough to feel in any way confident when laying out Japanese myself.
One interesting thing I can add, too. There was a question about what things John had noticed Japanese designers doing typographically, and there’s one thing that’s blown my mind over and over since I got here—it’s pretty much okay to squish type, horizontally being the most common. My supervisor here explained that this is pretty much down to there being no condensed or wide versions of Japanese typefaces. Of course this is linked to the huge character sets necessary, but unfortunately the fact that it is acceptable with Japanese characters means that for a lot of designers it then becomes acceptable with Latin characters, too! Madness!
You guys should dig up a something like Hiragino Mincho or Kakugo sometime, too. These large character sets aren’t just big because of traditionally written characters—for a full character set face to be acceptable a huge amount of different bullet points, lines, arrows, circled letters and numbers, inverted circled letters and numbers, and again in boxes... and still more seem to be necessary, because I see these extra characters everywhere!
Quite fascinating to pore over, but it’s really no wonder there are only a few weights and no condensed or wide versions of even the most prominently used faces...
Okay, you’ve probably heard enough about Japanese typography for one day! Sorry for going on and on again!
When we get our new site up with the resources section we'll definitely have to add your information in, and thanks for those blog entries as really. This is a perfect comment to the show.
Not at all. Note that I think qualified “Monospaced” with “fundamentally” or “basically” (I haven’t listened to the recording yet). While many Japanese typefaces are proportionally spaced, they more often than not comprise subsets of what are, in effect, monospaced glyphs. For example, the Kanji might share one advanced width, while the Hiragana another, and the Katakana yet another. Add to this that numerous Japanese typefaces have sparsely populated kerning tables (if any), and the overall impression is of a monospaced typeface.
The article that you mention outlines some sound tips, especially when it comes to spacing; e.g. more complex, multi-stroke characters should be set more loosely; conversely, Katakana are best spaced a little tighter than is the custom. It’s certainly a challenge to set Japanese type well, and especially difficult to achieve even texture/colour.
What you write about the tendency to distort text is unfortunately quite true; and so is the habit of applying a stroke to substitute for heavier weights that more often than not, simply don’t exist. And that’s another challenge of designing Japanese type — more complex characters easily become clogged and illegible once one begins to increase the stroke weight.
Well, you’ve inspired me to actually get on and write something about Japanese typography. If you have something you’d like to say, then feel free to mail me.
Please don't be offended ,I just wanna be able to hear this cast correctly.
C.
Pleased to see there's someone old enough to remember Peter & Jane. Redsil.com was retired a little while ago. The domain name came up for renewal, and I let it go. I hadn't updated it in over a year, and iLT keeps me pretty busy. Anyway, it did get me started.
Thanks for posting links to a couple of John's favorite fonts. I was wondering if you could post a few more that he mentioned? I was having a little trouble making out the names of a few I hadn't heard of.
I still haven't listened to the podcast, but from memory, here are some of the others I think I mentioned: Newzald, Lexicon by Bram de Does, Feel Script by Ale Paul, Kinescope by Mark Simonson, and Swift by Gerard Unger.
I've also been compliing a list of 100 of my favourite typefaces, so keep a look out for that. Compliing the list didn't take long. It's preparing the specimens that does.
I looked on "I Love Typography" but was not able to find the new site that John was talking about launching.
Could you please link to it?